Printer-friendly versionEvery now and then I google myself. Maybe it's vanity, but folks who read my stuff don't always talk about it on the websites I frequent. And, hey, half of the fun of being a writer is the joy of knowing what people think about what you've written. THe other half, of course is money, but we're not going to go there.
So I'm going through the results and I come across a blog entry. There's a young T-girl who's in the process of evaluating her reading material to see if they're helping or hurting her transistion, or so I gathered from the read. She had quite a lot to say about some of the writers I'm friends with but what struck me was what she had to say about Bek. And I quote:
"Bek D. Corbin’s fiction - Dammit, this is already harder than I thought it would be. Most of it is along the same forced-feminization line (or, at least, unwilling feminization) that I’m coming to acknowledge is unhealthy, but it’s actually well written. I particularly like the Jordan Winter stories and the Whateley Academy stories, among some others…I think I’m gonna keep this, for now…KEEP, BUT I FEEL GUILTY ABOUT IT"
I'd never really thought of the catagorization of 'forced femm' before and this got me thinking about about because of what she had to say about me. Again, I quote
"E.E. Nalley’s fiction - Similar to Bek D. Corbin’s stuff. But not quite as good. TOSS"
I suppose I should be flattered to be judged 'not quite as good as Bek'. But, as my friends will tell you I love a good arguement, so I started going back over my own writing to see if I was as 'bad' as this young lady was claiming. So, bear with me while I wander through my mental closet.
Shadows and Dust My first foray into the world of TG fiction. The research for this novel was how I became aware of the community. I knew that my heroine needed a 'reason' to be this professional criminal she had become and to ammass such enormas ammounts of money. There's nothing really forced about her transition. She is a classic sufferer (IMHO) of Gender Disphoria. So, this would not be true of my blogger critque.
Belle of the Ball Guilty as charged here. Belle is a fairly classic 'forced femm' kind of situation.
My Life as a Woman; No TG content, doesn't qualify
Death Wish: Toby is a transsexual, who get's his/her wish through magic. But, just because a dragon granted the wish does this make it 'forced femm?" I dunno.
Guardians of the Gates of Madness The Caregivers certainly cater to transsexuals, but, Ken technically wasn't TS before he joined. To him it was a means to an end, but he could have said no. As I point out, many recruits do. I can't really admit that this is forced Femm. Nobody has a gun to his head.
Everything Goes with Black Mail: This one I take exception to. ALL of the girls in the circle are T girls, diagnosed with GD, who underwent normal surgery. Granted, my character in this uni underwent some ODD trials to keep her career, but it's NOT forced femm. I guess I'm getting a little defensive now, so bear with me.
The Martian Conspiracy: As this is another Caregivers tale, my comments on GGM stand.
Rebecca's Tale: Well, it's Heaven and Hell, and yes, Rebecca was most definately forced, as a punishment, so mea culpa on that one.
Wedding of the Century, is a contnuation of RT, so that admission applies here.
Drilled Weekend is another Circle of Friends story, so, no it's not forced Femm.
Waiting on the Wind: Tough to say. Bobbie is a closet TG who eventually would have worked up the courage to transition on his own, but thorugh magic we have a goddess interveining. She got what she wanted, so, does that qualify as forced?
Archimedes Loss: Another Caregivers Story, so GGM applies
Debt of Conscience: Elisa is another classic transsexual who traded working in an extremely dangerous occupation for the ability to fulfill her own desire to be a woman. Hard work for a treasured goal, not only the American way, but nothing forced about it.
Transfer students and The Play's the Thing: Well, Lily isn't technically TG, so this doesn't apply.
Professional Courtesy: Another Caregivers story, so GGM applies.
So, what's the total score here? On the forced femm side 2 of my heroines, and on the went out and got it 8. More to the point, no matter how they came to be, I do my best to write about strong, competant woman that anyone male, female or inbetween can look up to and respect. So, to my critquer on her blog, I can only appologize that my stuff isn't your cup of tea, but I have to wonder if you read my stuff before you tossed it?
I would disagree that forced fem is unhealthy ...
... as the commenter said. Pehaps she meant unhealthy for HER state of mind which is a personal judgement.
I find some forced fem to be distasteful to me but the definition is not hard and fast and people don't agree on just what is FF. But some of it is "making the transformee blameless" fantasy and some is just story mechanics and some is wish fulfilllment and yes, some is fetish. Nothing actually unhealthy about fetish literature, as long as it doesn't become obsession and then it's the obsession that's the problem and the fetish only a symptom.
Just a thought, not a comment on your post actually, more a comment on the blog you found. :)
Hugs,
Erin
interesting
I have thought about this subject as well from both sides. I am a fence sitter if you will for any number of reasons. I've always seen forced Fem stories as a plea to "Somebody, anybody knock me off this damn fence!" Strange how we all know that being struck as the wrong gender is NOT a good thing, but so many Forced stories have the unwilling subject coping and even thriving after a time. Wish fulfillment maybe?
As a writer to really explore a character you have put them though some really unpleasant circumstances to demonstrate, well character. Heather (BladeDancer) does this very well as her Care Giver story showed. We writers can be a mean bunch as we work our will upon our poor heroines and heroes. Some Forced Fem? Yeah, but for me it is just another obstacle for our heroines to overcome.
Like others have said everyone has their own likes and dislikes. Two people can read the same material and get completely different things from it. I personally love Belle of the Ball and enjoy EE's other stories. It is a story where the Heroine overcomes her problems and wins where the whole world would rather she follow their own plans for her. I don't see any of the degradation and humiliation that pushes my own YUK! buttons. For me Belle ROCKS!
Just some of my rambles for what it's worth.
hugs!
grover
Plan? Ain't got no Plan!
"Beyond Thunder Dome"
Forced Femme???
I have to agree here. There has to be conflict of some sort for the story to be interesting and for characters like Bladedancer it just enhances the story. She (at the point I'm to, having read all the stories on The Crystal Hall website time after time, seems to be coming to grips with her situation which is all any of us can do. Personally I wish I'd found the sword. But my body shape and such preclude me from ever trying to change much as I would want to. I dreamed about being a girl from the time I was about 6 or 7 which is as far back as I can remember pretty much of anything. Reading these stories is cathartic to me and as much as it may be uncomfortable for some to read, I really love them. They give me a fantasy outlet for my inner girl as much as the characters I play on Everquest do. I wish they'd get that site up and running again. I miss my "me" girls. I've told people in game that I hope Norath is heaven and I can come back as one of my characters. Probably the wood elf ranger. She's slender, full of forest craft, and can run forever, something I wished I was as a kid, I hiked and ran through the local forests and loved it. Now I can hardly walk, let alone run and she is my favorite outlet. Thank you for your stories and for all the writers here and at the other sites. I love you all. Chris
Forced Fem Is A Touchy Subject For Some
Me, I like a good story and as far as forced fem goes, as long as the victim can adjust and adapt to situation, so much the better. To me, when the victim has no way out, it is a crime.
May Your Light Forever Shine
Stanman
May Your Light Forever Shine
Forced Fem?
I've spent a few years wandering around the fringes of this and that. Way back in the Dark Ages (late 60s and early 70s) there was a TV named Virginia Prince. She published a wonderful magazine named Transvestia. All the stories were sweetness and light. And I saw a running feud she had with another publisher who did forced fem, bondage and all that gory stuff.
Over the years I've found some of my attitudes changing. One of them has to do with the kind of stories I like. I liked Transvestia back then; today I find most of those kind of stories boring. Why? Little or no character growth. The main characters (I hesitate to call them hero(ine)s) fell into situations where their wishes to become girls could manifest without very much stress. Boooorinnng.
My personal definition of forced fem has a major element of domination: someone specific is forcing the situation, and a major challenge is the interpersonal conflict with the dominator. I don't see that in any of the TK Whateley characters. If the situation is forced by the gods or other external forces, the plot line is man struggling to adapt to a possibly malign fate, or man against himself, not interpersonal conflict.
I can see somewhat of where the young Tgirl is coming from: there's a growth line from where one hopes external forces will force one to do what one secretly wants to do, through admitting the secret want, and then taking control of one's own movement toward that goal. How does one know that one has actually grown? You can look back and there's no longer an attraction. What used to be attractive is now neutral: neither good or bad. Done that, dropped the T-shirt in the Goodwill box.
As far as literary style goes, I simply don't worry about what people say unless they have specific criticisms of the form: "this passage might work better if you did X". De gustibus non disputandum. There's a wonderful XKCD cartoon that I found via language log that expresses my attitude toward most literary theory and criticism:
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=376
I like a fair amount of what you write. Some story lines don't attract me; that's my privilege as a reader and is not a criticism of your writing. To say one writer is better or worse than another is simply not my thing.
Xaltatun
Forced not the same as Involuntary
I think the usage of "forced feminization" might be imprecise in this discussion. For me, there's a clear difference between "forced" and "involuntary" feminization. "Forced" implies duress, that is, someone actively imposing the change. When I read that in the summary of a story, I tend to expect an humiliation element mixed in.
"Involuntary" is much broader. It encompasses "forced," yes, but also accidental changes, or being led to it by circumstances, or being a victim of one's own mistakes.
You say "Belle of the Ball" is classic "Forced Fem." I disagree. It's classic INVOLUNTARY feminization, yes. But, even if it turned out that the transformation was engineered, your character was not aware of it at the time, and when she found out she had already made peace with her new gender. So, during the whole adjustment period, she didn't have someone to blame for her situation. Psychologically, she didn't feel coerced into becoming a woman; she felt like the victim of an accident who is dealing the best she can. The coercion she felt had nothing to do with becoming female, and everything to do with being drafted by the government.
Someone is bound to argue that I'm splitting hairs. I don't think so. There's a world of difference between losing a leg in a car crash after hitting black ice, and having a sadistic maniac kidnapping you and sawing off your leg. One is a feature in "Reader's Digest"; the other one is "Saw." Entirely different genres.
I tend to agree
I tend to agree with you, Sir Lee, when I see "Forced Femm" I also think of Fem Dom, a central antagonist who is living out their sadism on someone else, and mostly that antagonist tends to be a woman, generally into bondage and other 'fetishy' type items.
For an example
There's Jennifer Brock's chilling "Don't Take Lifts from Strangers" on BC right now. That one has a male villain.
I've tried writing forced femme myself, see Mercedes, but I had to make the victim almost deserve it to finish the story. An earlier attempt with an innocent is still sitting unfinished somewhere. I think I could do FF with a magic or SF plot but a 'realistic' story would make me shiver too much to type.
- Erin
Ditto
Involuntary VS forced is a major distinction, Sir_Lee has hit a big point.
In my own hamfisted attempts -- um yummy baked ham! -- I have had mostly involuntary transformations, mostly accidental in origin. My Whateley fanfic Timeout is a mix of both involuntary and forced. My chief heroine’s transformation was accidental, fate, the gods. Several secondary characters were transformed by unethical experimenters and some I have not explained their origins. But in that story line these people come together and make the best of it, they transcend what has happened to them and profit from it emotionally, spiritually, even monetarily.
A few of my stories could be seen as primarily forced, as they were engineered by others but there are shades of difference there too. Was it done with malicious intent or with benevolent purpose in mind? I have one story where time travel allows someone to transform themselves from a man into this eventual heroine of the future by in part transforming an ancestor of hers from a crippled girl into an extraordinarily healthy woman. None of this is voluntary but is it really forced?
Sgnt Joe is a forced fem story BUT the man went into this undercover detective job knowing he likely would get transformed. A transformation was proof he’d found the source of these criminal acts. Thus he/her voluntarily risked being forced thus his/her eventual forced transformation is and isn’t forced, do you see? My head is spinning on that one.
Forced requires a specific agent, preferably an intelligent one, human or alien to change someone with out their permission and often against their will/desires.
Accidental may or may not be what the transformed wanted but it was not done to them consciously, it was pure chance.
So many shades here. Tarring with a broad brush is a diservice to the author and reader.
John in Wauwatosa
But you're not a scientist. Surely you believe in all this superstitious nonsense. (MAD Magazine)
Could be worse, could be raining. (Young Frankenstein)
But you're not a scientist. Surely you believe in all this superstitious nonsense. (MAD Magazine) Could be worse, could be raining. (Young Frankenstein)
A very good discussion
This has turned into a very good discussion. Sir Lee's points about Involuntary changes versus Forced are very good. One of the biggest differences between the two is often humiliation is a part of the Forced category. It seems to be part of tearing down the main character. Perhaps that is why I'm not a fan of this type of story because the transformation does deliberate harm to the subject of said transformation.
Now if the subject is able to overcome that spite and turn the tables it crosses the line over to the involuntary transformations where our intrepid heroines triumphs over their difficulties. In the process we see their characters develop and expand.
A fine line but the difference between a positive uplifting tale and an one with a negative spin. There are places for both.
grover
"It can't rain all the time." Eric Draven "The Crow"
Plan? Ain't got no Plan!
"Beyond Thunder Dome"
Footnote
I drifted over here to read Archimedes’ Loss: A Care Givers Company Adventure, which I saw mentioned in a thread on the discussion boards at the Crystal Hall, and which I did not know existed because it is not on Sapphire’s Place. While here, I couldn’t help but notice this discussion. Though I’m late to the conversation, perhaps I can add something useful.
Sir Lee offers an excellent description of the difference between forced and involuntary femme (with the exception that I would use the word coercion to describe the element that characterizes forced femme stories), and then expresses concern that “Someone is bound to argue that I'm splitting hairs.” I would argue that, far from splitting hairs, these are distinct sub-genres of TG fiction that are widely recognized by writers and readers. From the quote that you (E. E. Nalley) provide, it seems that your blogger knew it too: “Most of it is along the same forced-feminization line (or, at least, unwilling feminization)…” It seems clear to me that your blogger is using unwilling the way that Sir Lee is using involuntary, to refer to stories where the transformation is not the result of human intervention (eg. where it is instead an act of God [such as a lightning strike], a virus [such as MORPHS], a genetic mutation [Whateley], or one of the causes that Sir Lee mentions).
You tell us that the blogger’s topic was “a young T-girl who's in the process of evaluating her reading material to see if they're helping or hurting her transition, or so I gathered from the read.” It is not clear to me from that, that she was writing specifically about forced and/or involuntary femme TG fiction stories. Consequently, when she characterizes your writing as “similar to Bek D. Corbin’s stuff,” I don’t know if she is saying that your stories are forced femme or involuntary femme — and that assumes that she was even speaking of the feminization story element. I can think of a few other ways that your writing is similar to Bek’s (and a few other authors) that have nothing to do with any of the tropes of TG fiction:
So, unless your blogger indicated so somewhere else in her article, I am not persuaded that she characterized your stories as forced/involuntary femme at all; that might be what she was thinking, but I do not know if that is what she was saying.
Sir Lee’s distinction is pivotal. I haven’t read Belle yet; if the main character’s transformation was in the nature of Whateley’s Poe cottage changelings, that by definition would not be forced femme.
No, because there is no coercion.
Caregivers: No way. Besides being entirely voluntary, new recruits are supported in their transitions. Coercion and humiliation have not been story elements in any CG story I’ve ever read.
Heaven & Hell: Interesting, because they do not feel like forced femme stories to me. In forced femme stories where the transitioning character undergoes no physical change, the coercion results in humiliation because the character is dragged kicking and screaming into femininity. In stories where a human agency imposes a physical change (through magic [SRU], technology [Hugglebuggle nanites], stealth hormone administration [“vitamins”], or kidnapping and forced surgery), the humiliation comes of the character fighting tooth and nail against adapting to the change in gender, and/or the character is subjected to rejection and ridicule (or worse) as a result of the change in gender status.
I have not seen a Heaven & Hell story where the main character truly resists her gender change, even though it was unwanted. As a result of the genre cross-pollination in that universe, gender is only one of many transitions to which characters must adapt (where it is usually the only thing in “straight” TG fiction); the Lillim have very high status, so that the characters usually experience an improvement in circumstances compared to their former lives (or, at least, they do not suffer ridicule and humiliation in their new situations); and, since angels can choose to manifest as male or female, the whole issue of gender doesn’t seem all that relevant in that universe, anyway.
I still say that I don’t know what her objection really was. I like Xaltatun’s response to that, though: “Some story lines don't attract me; that's my privilege as a reader and is not a criticism of your writing.”
I have a slightly different
I have a slightly different opinion on this subject. And a real problem.
Nobody ever gets to revert.
Born whatever (Usualy male), forced (by something) to change gender, but after the circmstances change again?
I know that this is the reason for this forum. But still.....
I came here through Whateley Academy, and most likely will not return. It's not my cup of tea. But, that doesn't mean what I have to say is wrong. Some of your story's have involentary elements (OK, most). But suddenly, people are accepting what they cannot change, sure, I can see that. What I have a real problem with is that you are so... one-way with this stuff.
Why not change back? If only in the appropriate cases.
Please consider it, for the character's it is approprate for.